Previous Post – Weekend Linkage #5 – Sovereignty Edition
While it has been a long time in the works, I am really excited to share this interview I did with Dewi Hughes, author of the must read, foundational work called “Power and Poverty: Divine and Human Rule in a World of Need”. While our response to poverty and injustice is increasing in the Church, this book stands an important foundation, especially to the West, on how to understand and engage these issues. I won’t say any more, as the interview speaks for itself. Enjoy!
Jamie Arpin-Ricci: Why did you write this book on this topic? Why do believe it is so important (especially now)?
Dewi Hughes: The occasion for writing was a request by my manager to produce a substantial work to mark the 40th anniversary of Tearfund in the autumn of 2008. Tearfund is an evangelical Christian relief and development organisation for whom I work full time as an in house theologian. I have been linked with Tearfund for almost 30 years and an employee for 22 and both my manager and I were drawn to Tearfund out of a conviction that evangelicals should be far more active in serving the poor than they were in the late 70s. [I should say, maybe, that evangelicalism in the United Kingdom is a somewhat different animal to evangelicalism in the US – maybe it’s more like evangelicalism in Canada. What I mean is that here evangelicalism is a lot less fundamentalist and right wing than it is in the US.]
That I focused on power probably goes back to a transforming sentence that I read in Jim Wallis’ “A Call to Conversion” many years ago – ‘The poor are not our problem. We are their problem.’ I also read something similar in Susan George’s “How the Other Half Dies: the Real Reasons for World Hunger” at about the same time. So, for the last 25 years or so I have been convinced that wealth and the power that goes with it and not poverty is the real problem. Some go without even the basic necessities because others have the power to demand far too much for themselves. I know that many will dismiss this simple equation as naïve and simplistic but I’m convinced that it is basically sound. So, how we use our power and wealth as rich Christians is a very important topic – it may not be the ground of our salvation but it certainly has a lot to do with the proof of it.
JAR: Issues of justice and poverty are increasingly gaining center-stage among Christians. While this is an exciting shift, what concerns might you have about this current shift? How does this book serve those who are pursuing this arena?
DH: I don’t think that the situation has changed that much in the UK in the last 20 years but I get the impression that things are changing in North America – and this is a cause of joy to me. I was struck by how far behind us North Americans were in the Lausanne Forum in Pattaya, Thailand in 2004. I was involved with the Holistic Mission issue group there. When the issue of HIV/AIDS was raised I realized that US evangelicals in particular were miles behind UK evangelicals in addressing this terrible pandemic. I think that any concerns I may have are a bit different for the UK and the US. In the UK I worry that the renewed interest in social action will be built on dualistic theological foundations – that what I’m witnessing is a swing of the pendulum from the ‘spiritual’ pole of the dualism to the ‘physical’. A lot of work is being done by Tearfund and others to make sure that this does not happen – especially with younger people – so I’m not that worried. The deep pragmatic element in the US character worries me. It’s a culture with a deep confidence that human ingenuity can fix anything – and this approach has even infiltrated deeply into the practice of evangelism and mission. The answer to my worries is a thoroughly theological/God-centred approach to the issue of wealth/poverty and I see my book as a little contribution to trying to make sure that this happens.
JAR: Were there any aspects of the topic that you hoped to address in the book, but were not able to?
DH: Lots! The book is actually an expanded introduction to the practice of overcoming poverty and I’m not surprised that one reviewer has blamed me for being too theoretical. I had intended to go on to examine 3 ways of overcoming poverty in the context of the theological foundations laid in Power and Poverty – emergency relief, community transformation with the church at its hear and advocacy. If Power and Poverty doesn’t do too badly I may get the opportunity to finish what I initially set out to do!
JAR: It is branded as an IVP Academic (here in North America), but it’s endorsement by people like Shane Claiborne & Christopher Heuertz will likely draw the non-academic crowd. Who did you most hope would read this book?
DH: I was surprised and pleased to see the endorsement by Shane Claiborne. I have met Chris Heuertz a few times and have tremendous respect for him personally and the vision and work of Word Made Flesh. I was humbled to discover that my earlier book, “God of the Poor”, had been a blessing to the Word Made Flesh folk. The book was aimed at the slightly more academic end of the market but with a desire to influence influencers. I’m hoping that it may bring some folk back to the Bible as the wellspring of their social vision and that other folk will discover a social vision in the Bible – and pass on the vision.
JAR: The book is co-branded with Tearfund, for whom you are a theological adviser. Tell us a little about that role and why you believe in Tearfund.
DH: Tearfund is an evangelical Christian relief and development organisation that was established in the UK in 1968. I left academia to work for Tearfund almost 23 years ago – firstly as the organisation’s representative in my home nation of Wales. For the last 9 years I’ve been a resident theological resource to the organisation. I contribute to its life in 4 main areas – with others I’m responsible for the spiritual framework policy, I do theological editorial work on publications, I network and I do some research and writing. I left a very fulfilling job as a college teacher to join Tearfund because I felt a strong divine calling to do so and because I had become convinced that Tearfund has been raised up by God to lead evangelical Christians and churches to a greater obedience to aspects of God’s revealed will that are often neglected. Of course the bottom line is blessing the poor by contributing just a little to the task of freeing the rich – which included myself – from the tyranny of mammon.
JAR: Which writers have significantly influenced you, especially concerning the topic of this book?
DH: Since I’m getting on a bit this could be a very long answer so I’ll mention a few highlights:
Francis Schaeffer rescued me when I was floundering as an undergraduate in philosophical doubt and existentialist angst and in the process introduced me to a holistic way of understanding the truth of God – and his “Pollution and the Death of Man” made me a bit of an eco nut. Rookmaker, Schaeffer’s friend and collaborator, led me to Abraham Kuyper and the Dutch Reformed school of Hermann Dooyweerd. Having become convinced that Jesus was Lord of all – including government and the economy – meant that it was inevitable that the poor would come into the equation.
Jim Wallis, A Call to Conversion – as I stated above one statement from this book has shaped much of my thinking – ‘The poor are not our problem. We are their problem.’
J. Howard Yoder, The Politics of Jesus.
Christopher J. H. Wright, Living as the People of God, – first published by IVP [UK] in 1983 this book – which was published with a different title in the US – laid the foundations for the ethical understanding of the OT that you find in Power and Poverty. Since then I have also been influenced by Chris Wright’s much expanded and updated version of his earlier works on OT ethics, Old Testament Ethics for the People of God [IVP, 2004] and his The Mission of God [IVP, 2006].
Glen H. Stassen & David P. Gushee, Kingdom Ethics [IVP, 2003] invigorated my love for the Sermon on the Mount.
Oliver O’Donovan, The Desire of the Nations: Rediscovering the Roots of Political Theology, [Cambridge University Press, 1996] – I’m never sure that I’ve understood O’Donovan properly because his writing is so dense but chapter 5 of this volume in particular lit something up in me that is the foundation of the section on the church in Power and Poverty.
JAR: Thanks Dewi!
