Comments on: Bridging the Parish / Congregation Divide

By: Of Jesus, Justice & Manifestos « A Living Alternative Our Missional Pilgrimage

Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:36:54 +0000

[...] Previous Post – Bridging Parish/Congregation Divide [...]

By: Is it good to be King? « getting free

Is it good to be King? « getting free — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 18:22:48 +0000

[...] it good to be King? This is a good discussion. In law school, we talked about freedom both in terms of “power [...]

By: Jamie Arpin-Ricci

Jamie Arpin-Ricci — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 00:54:21 +0000

Hey Chris,

I LOVE to hear that you (and others) are even asking the questions, let alone making the move to embrace community. Keep us posted!

Peace,
Jamie

By: Chris

Chris — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 00:31:39 +0000

Good stuff for me to be thinking about. I work out of a church and for a missions organization a little like y’all but different as well. Our church has un-grown (people leaving that do not approve of our relentless pursuit of simplicity in the way we express church) and transplanting this year from an isolated meeting place on the edge of town to the heart of a needy neighborhood in a funky part of our city.

My family will most likely be moving in to the house right next door to the building. Others are considering it. People will still “commute” to our meeting but some of us will be there and the neighborhood is all “abuzz” with our starting to fix up the place (empty for 4 years). So we are in the middle of walking these lines as I write.

By: Jamie Arpin-Ricci

Jamie Arpin-Ricci — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:25:49 +0000

Hey Liam,

It seems like a fairly common dynamic for our greatest strengths, gifts or freedoms to also be the source of our greatest weakness, indulgence and bondage. This emphasis on individuality being still significant within the community is reflect in the nature of God as Trinity. That mysterious tension is what will live our lives attempt, by His grace, to embody and embrace. Glad you found this challenging.

Peace,
Jamie

P.S. Loren Cunningham’s work on giving up rights is a great intro to these ideas.

By: Liam Byrnes

Liam Byrnes — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:56:34 +0000

Jamie, Thanks for your thoughtful response, I think I was erring to one side a little yesterday! I completely agree that part of the move of God in the Bible is to counter the lack of regard and focus on individuals. I think freedom of choice so quickly becomes consumerism, particularly in younger generations, So I guess its left the tough job of re-education on the distinction between the two, and an understanding that our freedom in itself is a Grace and not a Right, and that latter rhetoric is one that could corrupt our whole approach to Christian community, each other and God Himself. Again, Thanks for getting the cogs turning on this one. Liam

By: Jamie

Jamie — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 05:02:02 +0000

Thanks Uncle Brad. We have a very similar experience. While we are under a denomination, they have given us great freedom and excellent support/accountability. A good balance, to be sure. We also share the joy of ministry you are experience. It is really great!

Peace,
Jamie

By: uncle Brad

uncle Brad — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 22:54:38 +0000

Hi Jamie
Good article and thought provoking. Since your Aunt Marilyn and I decided to start a local fellowship in Atikokan our eyes have been opened to many positive and potentially negative outcomes. It is great in many ways to be free from the dictates and traditions of the larger church body. We are free to minister in our community as we believe God is leading us, and do not have to walk the line between church politic and the Father’s leading. On the other hand I am starting to see the value of having accountability to other believers that can be a great help in keeping me grounded, as well as seeing the bigger picture at times.
But one thing for sure, since starting our fellowship I have never had so much fun and joy at doing what I believe God wants for us. Our ministry is Atikokan and we are simply learning to love the people as God loves us. Keep up the good Word.
Uncle Brad

By: Jamie Arpin-Ricci

Jamie Arpin-Ricci — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:38:27 +0000

Hey Liam,

Thanks for weighing in. I think the challenge is that these two freedoms (like all freedoms) can have expressions that are misused and abused. At the heart of story of God there is a common thread on the value of the individual. That God would covenant was a radical departure from what the people thought of the divine. Our individuality is significant throughout Scripture. However, individualism- placing that value above all others- is an abuse that we must resist- resist without rejecting the underlying good.

In the same way, the freedom to choose where we associate & worship is a critical one insofar as our hearts must choose the worship God, not doing so out of obligation, coercion or fear. However, consumerism is a significant fly in the ointment. Where I think I differ from your take is that I do not equate consumerism with the freedom to make a choice (choosing to be “post-consumerist”), but rather with the treatment of faith & worship communities as products that are designed to meet our needs.

This is where the idea of submission is so critical. We must exercise our freedom in submission to Christ and His church. That does not mean total relinquishment of ones freedom to choose (always), but rather that we recognize that we hold these freedoms under the Lordship of Christ and submission to His purposes.

Peace,
Jamie

By: Liam Byrnes

Liam Byrnes — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 09:47:15 +0000

Jamie, this is a really interesting post.

I’ve never really thought through the divide you describe here in these terms. I think, probably due to being a little reactionary in nature, I would agree more with the later judgement of the consumerist attitudes to church before getting overly enthusiastic about the championing of the indivudalism that the radical reformation contributed to which has grown to allow a marketplace mindset to permeate our ideas about christian community.

That being said Im aware my ability to think about these issues is based on the earlier premise that I have the individualism given to me to make those decisions, even if it is a decision to opt-out of the marketplace decision making culture, if that makes any sense.

What I mean to say is that, we are all afflicted by consumerism in our attitudes to christian community, even if that is to decide that we will somehow be post-consumerist. That decision though, seems to be a more empowering option because it is a choice, an act of discipline which re-invigorates the heart to why it can be so beneficial to be in a community that you did not ‘choose’ but in a geographical sense chose you. Maybe its not as easy as all that though!…

..Thanks for provoking thought!